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Freedom vs. Reality
Freedom, Reason, and the Real World


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#1 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:46 PM

“The evidence of science and history,” he writes, “is that humans are only ever partly and intermittently rational, but for modern humanists the solution is simple: human beings must in future be more reasonable. These enthusiasts for reason have not noticed that the idea that humans may one day be more rational requires a greater leap of faith than anything in religion.” In an earlier work, Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals, he was more blunt: “Outside of science, progress is simply a myth.”



"Rousseau famously lamented, “Man is born to be free—and is everywhere in chains!” To which Alexander Herzen, a nineteenth-century Russian journalist and thinker, replied, in a dialogue he concocted between a believer in human freedom and a skeptic, “Fish are born to fly—but everywhere they swim!” In Herzen’s dialogue, the skeptic offers plenty of evidence for his theory that fish are born to fly: fish skeletons, after all, show extremities with the potential to develop into legs and wings; and there are of course so-called flying fish, which proves a capacity to fly in certain circumstances. Having presented his evidence, the skeptic asks the believer why he doesn’t demand from Rousseau a similar justification for his statement that man must be free, given that he seems to be always in chains."

http://nationalinter...an-freedom-8652

Read the whole thing. My mental backdrop is that last night I had to babysit a 250-lb drunk buddy who couldn't stand up. We basically had to Weekend-at-Bernies him for a mile, and then we gave up and waited while our friends went and got a car for him.Making sure he didn't fall on his face was pretty easy. He was like a floppy fish, but you can make sure a floppy fish doesn't fall on his face pretty easily. But reasoning with such a person is much harder; no, impossible. I immediately thought of political arguments (libertarian and liberal) which presuppose universal rationality and self-interested behavior.

Eventually, you just have to stop trying to convince the drunk guy to sit down and just push him down before he falls into the street.

#2 tommy

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:40 PM

This gets to one of the most obnoxious characteristics of the atheist(plusser).   When you get to the point of saying, "humans are only ever partly and intermittently rational," he nods his head in agreement since he's certain this means the man to the left and right of him, mankind in general, but he exempts himself.  He's a skeptic, after all.  He has rejected the popular delusion of religion and, so, he must be unusually rational.  In his own mind, he's the lonely rebel for the cause of reason in an unenlightened world and, in spite of claiming he wants humanity to think more like him, he's at least subconsciously comfortable with the status quo. It makes him the exception and that must make him special. (A similar syndrome can be found among many a spergish libertarian.)

The average atheist confuses rationality with skepticism, falls into the worship of latter, and abandons reflection.  But it's reflection that really makes for insight.  It's not the ability to be skeptical alone that makes one a thoughtful human being.  It's the rarer talent of easily alternating between skepticism and open-mindedness on any given topic that accomplishes this.  The atheist never figures it out and so his skepticism serves to corroborate his prejudices even as it fools him into believing he's profoundly intelligent and wise.

#3 Literally Cawkasian

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:33 AM

Many of the most vocal atheists are also quite often the most vocal egalitarians too, which is ironic when you consider how much of it is based on nothing more than ideological faith. Social science has simply replaced religious doctrine for them, and its still very much a case of them trying to base morality on a set of principles governed by a belief in something that cannot be categorically proven.

Its laughable when they smugly attack organized religion with reference to what cant be scientifically proven, or even better yet their belief that religious texts are hypocritical, yet that same fool will tell you that gender is a social construct in one breath while he tells you that "fags are born that way" in another.

Atheism is no longer about skepticism or indifference towards organized religion, its become an outlet for protest against the establishment. Religion is blamed for the social structures progressives view with disdain and its deemed necessary for removal to further their ideology.

#4 Lord Of The Moths

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:54 AM

Secular Humanism was the religion invented by Atheists to take the place of a Christianity they seek to destroy.  It is almost as if, facing the moral nihilism of a world without religion and God, they decided to keep Christianity, remove Christ, add Political Correctness and call it Secular Humanism.  Without God, who's to say what is right or wrong?  Atheists and Skeptics have a clear 'moral compass', but based on what?  What is its centre?  How is their moral position on gays and equality any more valid that someone who wants to persecute them for their deviancy?  What gives them a moral one-up?

They call themselves Athiests, Rational and Skeptics.  They are religious.  They are hardcore anti-Christian, but this is no surprise, as most of the fanatical rivalries are due to schisms.  They have a religion competing with another religion.  They cannot possibily be non-religious, because without any faith based accepted morality, there is no rational basis for accepting their particular Liberal wordview.





#5 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:52 PM

The

View PostLord Of The Moths, on 29 July 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Secular Humanism was the religion invented by Atheists to take the place of a Christianity they seek to destroy.  It is almost as if, facing the moral nihilism of a world without religion and God, they decided to keep Christianity, remove Christ, add Political Correctness and call it Secular Humanism.  Without God, who's to say what is right or wrong?  Atheists and Skeptics have a clear 'moral compass', but based on what?  What is its centre?  How is their moral position on gays and equality any more valid that someone who wants to persecute them for their deviancy?  What gives them a moral one-up?

They call themselves Athiests, Rational and Skeptics.  They are religious.  They are hardcore anti-Christian, but this is no surprise, as most of the fanatical rivalries are due to schisms.  They have a religion competing with another religion.  They cannot possibily be non-religious, because without any faith based accepted morality, there is no rational basis for accepting their particular Liberal wordview.


The leftist religion(and it should be obvious here that 80% of the putative right is actually on the left) is gnosticism: it reduces all human problems to shortfalls in the dissemination of the best and most relevant facts. That's why you so often hear shameful behavior described as "ignorant." The assumption is that anyone who would behave badly (or differently) is doing so not because of their wills or their instincts, but because they haven't been made aware of the best information.

I think that the purpose of world history is to purify and glorify Christ's Church so that it can reign with Him, so I welcome gnostics as helpful enemies. In general, they remind me what not to be, and more specifically, the remind me of Jesus, the Word Made Flesh. Jesus is the solution for the whole person: intellectually through the Scriptures, and tangibly through the sacraments (Baptism and Communion). To read the Gospels is to read of Jesus' principled refusal to answer (proto-)Talmudic questioning about the nature of the world. He was and is the Anti-Gnostic: information inaccessible except through the portal of willful assent to His Lordship.

#6 Frontier

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:42 PM

Quote

To which Alexander Herzen, a nineteenth-century Russian journalist and thinker, replied, in a dialogue he concocted between a believer in human freedom and a skeptic, “Fish are born to fly—but everywhere they swim!”

:librage: CHECK YOUR CISGENDERED VICTORIAN PRIVILEGE, BIGOT!!1!!1!!!!!

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#7 Lord Of The Moths

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 02 August 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

The

View PostLord Of The Moths, on 29 July 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Secular Humanism was the religion invented by Atheists to take the place of a Christianity they seek to destroy.  It is almost as if, facing the moral nihilism of a world without religion and God, they decided to keep Christianity, remove Christ, add Political Correctness and call it Secular Humanism.  Without God, who's to say what is right or wrong?  Atheists and Skeptics have a clear 'moral compass', but based on what?  What is its centre?  How is their moral position on gays and equality any more valid that someone who wants to persecute them for their deviancy?  What gives them a moral one-up?

They call themselves Athiests, Rational and Skeptics.  They are religious.  They are hardcore anti-Christian, but this is no surprise, as most of the fanatical rivalries are due to schisms.  They have a religion competing with another religion.  They cannot possibily be non-religious, because without any faith based accepted morality, there is no rational basis for accepting their particular Liberal wordview.


The leftist religion(and it should be obvious here that 80% of the putative right is actually on the left) is gnosticism: it reduces all human problems to shortfalls in the dissemination of the best and most relevant facts. That's why you so often hear shameful behavior described as "ignorant." The assumption is that anyone who would behave badly (or differently) is doing so not because of their wills or their instincts, but because they haven't been made aware of the best information.

I think that the purpose of world history is to purify and glorify Christ's Church so that it can reign with Him, so I welcome gnostics as helpful enemies. In general, they remind me what not to be, and more specifically, the remind me of Jesus, the Word Made Flesh. Jesus is the solution for the whole person: intellectually through the Scriptures, and tangibly through the sacraments (Baptism and Communion). To read the Gospels is to read of Jesus' principled refusal to answer (proto-)Talmudic questioning about the nature of the world. He was and is the Anti-Gnostic: information inaccessible except through the portal of willful assent to His Lordship.

Gnosticism without Gnosis?  I think it's simpler than that.  

Political Correctness IS a religion.  There is truth and there is Truth.  There are facts and there are Facts.

Their professors and Leftist priests hold the keys to esoteric and cryptic wisdom.  Their texts are holy.  A PC leftist professors writings on race are canon.  The scientific realtalk on racial differences is not canon, it is heresy.  Interpretation of history which supports the conclusion that the modern world is the culmination of historic efforts to create a PC society is canon.  Other interpretations are not canon and are therefore 'incorrect' (even if facts show otherwise).

If it was purely about knowledge, they would not be Leftists.  How could they be?  They choose what knowledge is Truth and what is not truth, and those who don't know Truth are ignorant.  They are ignorant because they have not read the right books, not followed the right priests and fountains of wisdom.

My observation, is that PC Leftism is about starting with a conclusion, and accepting Truth which supports that conclusion and rejecting truth which opposes that conclusion.  "truth" which opposes must therefore be heresy.  In my conversations with them, they sometimes actually denounce the importance of facts (I've been called a "facts nazi" and been told that you can't determine what is real through facts).



#8 President Jacob Zima

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:45 PM

:kevin: is strong itt
@SummernlightningUSA Nice rational argument there. If you don't like RSD stuff, then fuck off of the video and let everyone else enjoy the life-changing insights in peace...while you bitterly masturbate in the friend zone.

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#9 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:12 AM

View PostLord Of The Moths, on 02 August 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:


Gnosticism without Gnosis?  I think it's simpler than that.  

Political Correctness IS a religion.  There is truth and there is Truth.  There are facts and there are Facts.

Their professors and Leftist priests hold the keys to esoteric and cryptic wisdom.  Their texts are holy.  A PC leftist professors writings on race are canon.  The scientific realtalk on racial differences is not canon, it is heresy.  Interpretation of history which supports the conclusion that the modern world is the culmination of historic efforts to create a PC society is canon.  Other interpretations are not canon and are therefore 'incorrect' (even if facts show otherwise).

If it was purely about knowledge, they would not be Leftists.  How could they be?  They choose what knowledge is Truth and what is not truth, and those who don't know Truth are ignorant.  They are ignorant because they have not read the right books, not followed the right priests and fountains of wisdom.

My observation, is that PC Leftism is about starting with a conclusion, and accepting Truth which supports that conclusion and rejecting truth which opposes that conclusion.  "truth" which opposes must therefore be heresy.  In my conversations with them, they sometimes actually denounce the importance of facts (I've been called a "facts nazi" and been told that you can't determine what is real through facts).


Gnosticism is not the pursuit of knowldege but the fetishization of secretly-held, ingroup-dependent knowledge. Everyone wants to know more things, and everybody places new information into a paradigm that makes sense to them. What distinguishes gnosticism is that it makes knowledge the sole fount of virtue. Every group of thinkers that's strong enough to be convincing distinguishes between it's in-group and the out-group. What makes leftism gnostic is that they don't have a category for evil, other than to say that it's uninformed and backwards thinking. The in-group knows, the out-group is deluded, and would surely change their ways if only they could see (recently it's been determined that "seeing privilege" is the magic bullet for just and harmonious society),

"Facts Nazi" is funny, but if you have their worldview, it makes sense. They take it on faith that their knowledge is the most important, and they think it's vulgar to counter it with mere facts, things which happened to have occurred, patterns which happened to have formed. To them, knowledge and progress are secular Gods, and their in-group understanding (kitted out with the newest terminology) is the Holy Writ.

Facts have an essential place in discourse, but the power to decide which facts are the most important is paramount. Ideology is about power.

#10 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:36 AM

View PostAO: LATINO CON ROMNEY, on 02 August 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

:kevin: is strong itt

Not a lot of "God has raped me with existence" level sperging from anyone in this thread, nor are needlessly large words being used.

Is this just a comparison you make whenever anyone talks about religion?

#11 SixtusVIth - Catholic Space Nazi

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 03 August 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

View PostAO: LATINO CON ROMNEY, on 02 August 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

:kevin: is strong itt

Not a lot of "God has raped me with existence" level sperging from anyone in this thread, nor are needlessly large words being used.

Is this just a comparison you make whenever anyone talks about religion?

Most likely it's just an opportunistic shot at Mlad.  If you are new and haven't joined Chat, stop in some Saturday night and ask about his doings here, you'll see why.
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Posted Image --- This is me, savoring each post of yours

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#12 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostSixtusVIth - Catholic Space Nazi, on 03 August 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 03 August 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

View PostAO: LATINO CON ROMNEY, on 02 August 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

:kevin: is strong itt

Not a lot of "God has raped me with existence" level sperging from anyone in this thread, nor are needlessly large words being used.

Is this just a comparison you make whenever anyone talks about religion?

Most likely it's just an opportunistic shot at Mlad.  If you are new and haven't joined Chat, stop in some Saturday night and ask about his doings here, you'll see why.

I've seen some good mlad posts, although he can become a bit histrionic. In a decent world, he and eloh would have a satellite radio show together or some s**t. I rarely chat, so I suppose I miss a lot of backstory.


#13 GhostfaceCracka

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 05 August 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

View PostSixtusVIth - Catholic Space Nazi, on 03 August 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 03 August 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

View PostAO: LATINO CON ROMNEY, on 02 August 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

:kevin: is strong itt

Not a lot of "God has raped me with existence" level sperging from anyone in this thread, nor are needlessly large words being used.

Is this just a comparison you make whenever anyone talks about religion?

Most likely it's just an opportunistic shot at Mlad.  If you are new and haven't joined Chat, stop in some Saturday night and ask about his doings here, you'll see why.

I've seen some good mlad posts, although he can become a bit histrionic. In a decent world, he and eloh would have a satellite radio show together or some s**t. I rarely chat, so I suppose I miss a lot of backstory.

You miss a great deal. Posts are just things we have to crank out so that Pman will keep the lights and heat on in the chat room. The real MPC goes down in chat.
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#14 Frontier

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PosthobbeSian peniS, on 05 August 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

I've seen some good mlad posts, although he can become a bit histrionic. In a decent world, he and eloh would have a satellite radio show together or some s**t.
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