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Moldbug's "Cathedral"
What is up with this?

Moldbug Cathedral Jews

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#41 Supreme Gentleman

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:34 AM

View PostChuck U. Farley, on 29 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I absolutely hate "the cathedral" as a descriptor for the poz power elite.  I just think its part of moldbug's Jew chauvinism poking through.  The cathedral as the pinnacle of white Christian civilization makes it jarringly inapt as a name for the circle of elites that are antithetical to western Christian civilization.  I would think "the Cabal" or "the synogogue of satan" would more accurately capture the group in question.

Also agree with this, "The Cathedral" is utterly stupid and bankrupt as a metaphor... if one were going for a full-on assault against Unitarians, why not something like "The Potluck", or "The Pride Parade"? I get a bit of a Jew vibe too but bloggers on the whole tend to whiff of the Jew so I won't make any solid accusations.

View PostPLEASUREMAN, on 25 May 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

But of course, how simple.  You have to ask yourself, why this Protestantism, and why liberals, to get onto the right track.  People aren't born Protestant liberals.  This track leads far from anything Moldbug is babbling about, which is essentially just the received wisdom he's obtained from books written by men who shared his erroneous perspective.  (Naturally then they're often in agreement.)

But another problem I have with Moldbug's argument is that it is a little stupefying.  Now Moldbug doesn't come right out and blame everything bad on these liberal universalists and their descendants, but he does seem to think they were up to no good in the name of good.  This is unfortunately an easy pose for the sheltered modern conservative, who has no memory, not even a dim one, of slavery, child labor, poverty, disease, and all the other bad things that the liberal universalists had to confront in their day.  And of course these problems did far more to shape their thinking than a particular denomination of Christianity, which I strongly believe had no real influence.

What Moldbug forgets is that people choose their religion in all important respects.  Christianity has so many variations that one feels silly pointing this out.  The Protestantism that Moldbug is talking about received the focus of its adherents, not the other way around.  It is the ex post facto justification of the spirit that already existed.  Why did the spirit ever exist?  Moldbug has no answer--it's not in his books.  Perhaps it was a random mutation.

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The truth is that we do not enjoy masterless freedom; we are continually threatened by psychic factors which, in the guise of "natural phenomena", may take possession of us at any moment. The withdrawal of metaphysical projections leaves us almost defenceless in the face of this happening, for we immediately identify with every impulse instead of giving it the name of the other, which would at least hold it at arm's length and prevent it from storming the citadel of the ego.

#42 Chuck U. Farley

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

I think Moldbug misses the human scale of the problem.  Cotton Mather and the pilgrims weren't slyly planting the seeds for a global conspiracy to fight 21st century homophobia.  People are people, they see things from a people eye view, and associate concepts on an intrinsically tribal scale.  As in people don't see the world merely as individuals, but as individuals of a tribal group, with tribal subdivisions of family, clan, tribe, and tribal allies and enemies.  You can replace feathers and paint with flags and uniforms, but the underlying natural structure remains.  We feel at ease when the environment is in harmony with our natures, and we feel tension when the world around us is in conflict with our nature.  Our natural selves struggle with the complexity of modern life.  Our natural fears and passions flow into new directions and objects, our fight and flight instincts are flaring constantly in a world that we can't fight or run away from.

On a certain level the poz is an abnormal response by natural impulses responding to an abnormal situation.  Every tribe has elites, our complex society has its own poz elites drawn from traditional racial elites and Jew managers.  Their ideology is self serving, always.  Their objectives are to satisfy their desires, to protect themselves from the Goy masses they fear, to dominate and profit off of others, and when possible to indulge their desire for vengeance against their tribal enemies.

Moldbug does no one any favors by demonizing well meaning Protestant forefathers who have no relationship to the poz.  The blame belongs elsewhere.



#43 Crabtree

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostA True Fapstronaut, on 04 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

View PostChuck U. Farley, on 29 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I absolutely hate "the cathedral" as a descriptor for the poz power elite. I just think its part of moldbug's Jew chauvinism poking through. The cathedral as the pinnacle of white Christian civilization makes it jarringly inapt as a name for the circle of elites that are antithetical to western Christian civilization. I would think "the Cabal" or "the synogogue of satan" would more accurately capture the group in question.
Also agree with this, "The Cathedral" is utterly stupid and bankrupt as a metaphor... if one were going for a full-on assault against Unitarians, why not something like "The Potluck", or "The Pride Parade"? I get a bit of a Jew vibe too but bloggers on the whole tend to whiff of the Jew so I won't make any solid accusations.

This blogger suggests that Moldbug probably borrowed the metaphor from (big surprise) Thomas Carlyle:

Thomas Carlyle said:

The Church is the working recognized Union of our Priests or Prophets, of those who by wise teaching guide the souls of men. While there was no Writing, even while there was no Easy-writing, or Printing, the preaching of the voice was the natural sole method of performing this. But now with Books!—He that can write a true Book, to persuade England, is not he the Bishop and Archbishop, the Primate of England and of All England? I many a time say, the writers of Newspapers, Pamphlets, Poems, Books, these are the real working effective Church of a modern country.


#44 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

Yes but what does that have to do with Bitcoins?
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#45 Supreme Gentleman

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostChuck U. Farley, on 04 June 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think Moldbug misses the human scale of the problem.  Cotton Mather and the pilgrims weren't slyly planting the seeds for a global conspiracy to fight 21st century homophobia.  People are people, they see things from a people eye view, and associate concepts on an intrinsically tribal scale.  As in people don't see the world merely as individuals, but as individuals of a tribal group, with tribal subdivisions of family, clan, tribe, and tribal allies and enemies.  You can replace feathers and paint with flags and uniforms, but the underlying natural structure remains.  We feel at ease when the environment is in harmony with our natures, and we feel tension when the world around us is in conflict with our nature.  Our natural selves struggle with the complexity of modern life.  Our natural fears and passions flow into new directions and objects, our fight and flight instincts are flaring constantly in a world that we can't fight or run away from.

This is a deeply insightful comment. One might object that the Protestant strains from which universal churches emerged were naturally rebellious, that sola fide encourages a kind of impudent individualism (a charge frequently levied by critics of antinomians). And yet our history proves this is not the case, or that if this effect is present it is a minimal, a nominal one. Did the English dissenters and German utopians come to America as individuals, as Paul Bunyan-type shack-dwelling radicals? No. They came as churches: and what is the most common meaning of the word church, if not a congregation of believers. The human instinct to form and nurture common bonds will cross over all wordy gestures and high ideas of the mind.
The truth is that we do not enjoy masterless freedom; we are continually threatened by psychic factors which, in the guise of "natural phenomena", may take possession of us at any moment. The withdrawal of metaphysical projections leaves us almost defenceless in the face of this happening, for we immediately identify with every impulse instead of giving it the name of the other, which would at least hold it at arm's length and prevent it from storming the citadel of the ego.

#46 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:37 PM

That's a good summary of Moldbug's problem, which afflicts young intellectuals.  They have a poor intuitive understanding of human drives and therefore resort to an intellectual cosmology to explain human society.  They believe ideas and intellectuals matter because they have no understanding of the physical aspects of social bonding--the sense of place, the sense of kinship, the sense of personal as opposed to intellectual history.  The church was physical, not an intellectual debating society--this is preserved via iconography and architecture and (physical) ritual.  An idea is always a poem about a physical response.  But young intellectuals do not understand the complicated relationship between ideas and the physical world.

They are easily intoxicated by ideas as stimulants, but don't realize that their intoxication is a product of their youth and their already established emotional/intuitive system of physical reaction.  They often don't see how untrue they are to the ideas they claim to be stimulated by--their unfaithfulness is what gives the lie to the idea being father to the belief.  Rather, the belief is father to the argument, the justification, the rationalization--but the belief is physical.  If the justification is in error, the belief never cares.  Only where there is no belief, or a weakened (physically) state of belief, is there such a thing as changing one's mind.
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#47 Chrome

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostA True Fapstronaut, on 04 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

I get a bit of a Jew vibe too but bloggers on the whole tend to whiff of the Jew so I won't make any solid accusations.


Moldbug has said he is half-Jewish (his dad was a state department jew). Actually the post he wrote about the Jewish Question is pretty relevant to this topic.

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My father is Jewish, at least racially. This does not make me Jewish, but surely it makes me suspect, at least to some anti-Semites. But if this was my best reason for not being anti-Semitic, surely it would tend to confirm rather than refute MacDonald's theories. If your father is Catholic, are you not allowed to be an anti-Catholic?

In fact, anti-Semitism MacDonald style is probably the most courageous political belief anyone can hold in 2007 - at least if you live anywhere west of Gaza City. This does not make it right, but it certainly does not give anyone who believes in "diversity" and "the environment" any right to sneer. I admire conviction, I despise cant. Anti-Semitism was cant in Munich in 1936, or in 1886 for that matter. It is cant in Tehran today. In California in 2007, it can be nothing but conviction.

As far as I'm concerned, Moldbug killed his own argument with this line. As Voltaire said: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
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#48 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

Thanks to all for not posting any Curtis Yarvin poetry performances ITT. I'm not going to do it either.

#49 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:31 PM

Voltaire is semi-right, and what I take from that passage is that Moldbug senses the same thing.  You could be tossed in the gulag for saying something impermissible, it's truthfulness was secondary.  This means you need conviction to say the thing--because you have every easy reason in the world not to say it.  It doesn't make it true, and there are certainly people on the "alt-right" who believe things about Jews that aren't true.  It takes conviction to say the European Baking Championships didn't happen, but we can say with pretty much metaphysical certitude that it did and that the numbers add up.

Of course the word "anti-Semite" is a bit of a problem here, because it lumps everyone into one dubiously named group, much like the equally fraudulent word "homophobe" (or "racist").  Moldbug must know this but pretends he doesn't.  Then there is the question of whether having a Jewish father makes him Jewish--surely, in grown-up-land, we can all agree that Jewishness is a meaningful ethnicity, that Jewish law (matrilineal Jewishness) is not an accurate definition of this ethnicity, and that it is more than culture and religion and involves genetic distinctions.  Where did they get those noses and those fleshy faces and that Tay-Sachs if not from centuries of inbreeding?  So this is acutely disingenuous of Moldbug, and a very Jewish form of disingenuousness on this question.

In fact most of what he says in that post is pretty easily dismissed humbug, but since one of the salient Jewish traits is ethnic chauvinism, it isn't surprising that he believes his own humbug.  Moldbug writes well, and even though his treatment of "anti-Semitism" is ridiculously weak I find him a pleasant sort of person--I would probably like him quite well if I knew him.

MacDonald weakened his case by focusing too much on Jewish intellectuals (at least in The Culture of Critique), which makes it easy to dismiss his arguments about Jewish outgroup behavior as a conspiracy theory that Jewish intellectuals like Freud and Boas hijacked the West (on the other hand, that Jews have approached politics in an underhand way is also true).  Obviously this theory about intellectuals is not my view, as explained in my previous post, but it's also not my view that Jews were totally incidental and just happen to dominate politics and the media because they're so smart.  But I would not bother trying to convince Moldbug that Jews merit criticism as Jews.  It would be my reasoning vs. every Jew Moldbug has ever known, all those kin connections and reinforcing sympathies and shared emotional experiences.
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#50 Rollory

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

A few days late here but

View PostSwaggering Caudillo Phrippedreak bin al-Aziz von R, on 26 May 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

But that's a tangent. What I'm pointing out is that the Rollory never indicated any of these retrospectively terrible decisions were all part of some overarching liberal scheme to deliver us to our modern state of abject faggotry. Rather, he noted that contrary to what someone else said - that everything was roses until Jews got involved - that, in fact, the leadership of the Anglo-world have made many of the key decisions over the past two centuries which played a major role in bringing on our current predicament.

Exactly, thank you.  I don't claim a self-destructive WASP conspiracy.  To the extent Moldbug does, or talks as if he does, I don't think (based on my reading of him) that he considers it to be a serious and conscious one - it's more a rhetorical gimmick, describing a side effect of the principles adopted by key elements in WASP societies.  He doesn't say that the Quakers plotted to take over the world, he notes that Quaker principles HAVE taken over the world and have so permeated the cultural environment we don't even notice them anymore, and that those principles are a major problem.

Jews may find this useful for their own purposes, and they may well make matters significantly worse than they would be without Jewish involvement; but they didn't create the situation.  Whites are not helpless before them.  Whites need to be able to take responsibility for their own behavior and bad choices, and that means recognizing that the bad choices even happened.

OD's May 26 post on "bicausalism type B" (borrowing the term from Chechar), and the recent posts on how Southern Jews actively opposed negro liberation and political involvement during the post war and "civil rights" periods, are good pieces on this.

#51 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

Saying that whites made "bad choices" (and blaming Quakers, no less) is letting the tail wag the dog.  The problem can't be solved by having a heart-to-heart with some white f****t and getting him to become race aware.  MacDonald, despite his focus on intellectual movements, actually does provide some insight here via emphasis on the sociological dynamics of ingroup-outgroup interaction.  His problem is that he mostly ignores huge environmental changes that resulted from increase in scale, which causes him to miss that the effect of chauvinistic outgroups like Jews is greatly magnified in a mass society (vs. a mainly agricultural pre-industrial society).

But whereas MacDonald is near to an accurate diagnosis, Moldbug is far afield rambling about 19th century Prostestants as if he's found the first cause, and pretty much ignoring the environment in which these groups of people lived.  MacDonald's oversight can be remedied by looking at the work of men like Tainter and Calhoun, but Moldbug's errors result in a thesis that can only be dumped in the trash bin--it's unfixable.
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#52 Rollory

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostPLEASUREMAN, on 05 June 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The problem can't be solved by having a heart-to-heart with some white f****t and getting him to become race aware.  

The problem is solvable by raising generations of kids according to healthy and sane social principles; kids who, at the higher intellectual levels, are taught to understand the principles behind why society should be organized a certain way and what has caused social failures in the past, and at the lower intellectual levels, follow a religion that teaches in shorthand form lessons that represent those principles. The first point was mostly achieved by Europe for a while but has since been lost; the second has long been uncertain, given the contradictory and incoherent interpretations that have been made of Christianity. The mistakes of the past should not be repeated; in order to not repeat them, we need to know what they are. There is a direct and very bright line from the Quakers and their pseudopacificism to kids watching Star Wars and learning that hate and anger are always on the side of evil and from there to the idea that the correct way to fight a war is to let the enemy shoot at you first in order to win hearts and minds. It is all part of the same mental system, and not shooting at Mexicans running over the border (or not rounding them up and shipping them back by force) is just another part of it.

Regarding changes in scale, technological changes over the past two centuries have also drastically changed how ideas propagate through populations.

View PostPLEASUREMAN, on 05 June 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

But whereas MacDonald is near to an accurate diagnosis,

The only way to say that is if you've already decided what you want the answer to be.

Moldbug turns up primary-source facts that are verifiable, not commonly known, and make commonly known facts appear very different (Hutchison's "Strictures" is an excellent example). His thesis is descriptive not normative; he describes a pattern that he sees in the facts he turns up, and it does correspond rather well. Whether that pattern is complete or not, whether he's leaving things out due to oversight, incompetence, blind spots, or dishonesty, is up to the reader to judge; but any complete description of what happened and is happening must include the facts that he does point out. Occidental Dissent, coming at the matter from an entirely different direction and background and without Moldbug's verbosity or convolutions, has turned up quite a lot of evidence that fits quite well with Moldbug's ideas. I haven't seen anything in your arguments that discredits or provides specific alternative explanations for any of the facts they present.

#53 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

This is the earnest alt-right response in a nutshell:  give your kids the struggle lifestyle and the problem is solved.  In the meantime, beat your chest about someone else's failure to act according to this prescription.

There is no evidence that Quaker pacifism resulted in fundamental changes in American society, and it is certainly inadequate to explain the similar modern condition of the non-American West.  If you nevertheless believe it produced fundamental changes, how do you explain the wars that took place afterwards, including up to the present?  It is farcical to depict 19th and 20th century American intellectual development as a blank sheet of paper with "Quakers" in the middle and line going straight to "George Lucas Star Wars f****ts".  It leaves out the military-industrial complex, secularized mass society, growing population density, the globalized economy, increased social and technological complexity, declining birthrates, etc etc etc.  If these changes are explained as preparing the soil for the spread of Quaker pacifism, than Quaker pacifism is no longer a primary or sufficient cause of anything; if these changes were produced by Quaker pacifism (which is incoherent to start with), then why in the absence of Quaker pacifism elsewhere do we see similar changes?  If Quaker pacifism is just part of an intellectual transformation, then what led to Quaker pacifism?  What caused the intellectual transformation?  How did it compete with contending ideologies?  Why did it succeed?  But the more one looks at it, the more it looks like an esoteric Internet ideology made for the amusement of Moldbug's fans.

If you say, "Never mind, Moldbug did the math," then please show his math, not a link to his blog and "you'll see".  One of many unconvincing things about Moldbug's diagnosis is that the decline of the West isn't the only known instance of cultural decline, so it's worthwhile considering what the decline of the West has in common with the decline of past complex societies--and "Quaker pacifism" is no help here.  In order to sufficiently explain the state of modern Western society, it isn't sufficient to find someone 200 years ago who seems more or less aligned with modern progressives, you have to explain why things happened when they did, and not along a different time scale (if at all).  Moldbug seems unable to do this.

The prescription is useless and amounts to commanding a sick man to become well.  Voila!  Western collapse averted.  If only they had thought of this in the 5th century.

Moldbug's premise--that intellectual movements shape society--is one I would contest in any case.  The case for this assumes that man is fundamentally a rational animal, but the news from the front says that he mostly isn't, that he comes up with reasons after he acts, not before, and that intellectual arguments don't have much effect on his emotional/intuitive brain.  The structure of his thinking is oriented toward social communication and relationships, not intellectual reasoning, which is merely a tool of his intuitive mind, discarded when not needed.  This is borne out by all of man's political and moral behavior.

I should add that the undue emphasis placed on intellectual movements seems to be common among bookworms with a slightly spergy orientation.  It tells them that their world of ideas matters, it isn't just some parlor game participated in by sunken chested political science majors.  They've never met a politician.
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#54 Legs batman

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

I upvoted Rollory and others in the antithesis camp as this went along, not just to egg them on, but because I think it was good to get the conversation all the way to where it got.  

But, to be frank, there was another reason I was afraid to jump in... memories... hard memories... I've seen things man...

Quote

Mencius, I've said it before, but one last time: you have no idea what you're talking about.

Gregory Cochran went off on Mencius in the 2Blowhards combox, circa 2008, about Iraq. Cochran continued:

Quote

Anyone who volunteers to blow himself up is not seeking a conventional kind of power.
By the way, here's a tip: one of the secrets of the genius racket is bothering to get your facts straight. You might try it.

Quote

"I confess that I don't really understand them." [Mencius in an earlier comment.]
Too right. You don't know history, you don't know economics, and you don't bother to check the facts. You're embracing nonsense that was exploded years ago. Screw this.

It kept going.

Quote

You seem to value your conclusions over actual observations....

As for whom to believe, you might pay more attention to people whose predictions have come true....

Do you? Did you forecast a guerrilla war? Did you foresee that the whole WMD story was a fantasy? I did - I've explained why. It involved knowing s**t and thinking straight, and I see no sign that you're capable of either.

You can usually believe people making an admission against interest: for example, when the US government admits that almost every thing we said going into Iraq turned out to be wrong, which of course makes them look like the utter fools that they actually are, you can bet it's the case. Not least because it agrees with all the publicly available evidence.

...

Did you see this coming? Did you foresee _any_ of the s**t that came down in Iraq? No? Then why the hell should anyone listen to you? ... You suffer from bounded cognition.

Read the whole thing for context of course.

But it wasn't the only time gcochran was highly critical of MM. When MM recently showed up on Cochran's turf, he got this for his trouble:

Quote

I’ve seen you say many things in a number of forums, and I’ve never seen you make a lick of sense. This is your chance to do something different. Exercise it.

If the people could vote directly on each individual issue, they’d support all these things: an end to almost all immigration, legal and illegal, and sending back people in the country illegally. Strong defense, but non-interventionist foreign policy. Strong tariffs on just about everything to put American workers back to work. Tough crime laws and severe prisons. Death penalties after one month. Gun ownership, but with licensing. Removal of vagrants from the streets. Forcing the mentally ill into institutions. Equitarianism not egalitarianism. Forced government jobs for everyone who can’t find one in the public sector. An end to affirmative action. You get the idea, they are on the opposite side of the elites on all issues. --commenter Steve on a Roissy thread

#55 Rob S.

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:13 PM

Quote

If you say, "Never mind, Moldbug did the math," then please show his math, not a link to his blog and "you'll see".

Try the infamous TIME article from the aftermath of WWII that he is always so excited about -- covering a conference where a lot of non-marginal Protestants (heads of highbrow unis, etc etc) teamed up to discuss hot ideas like worldwide free immigration, and IIRC pretty-much sovereign world goverment.  They were up to their nips in some seriously awesome poz.


Quote

In fact most of what he says in that post is pretty easily dismissed humbug, but since one of the salient Jewish traits is ethnic chauvinism, it isn't surprising that he believes his own humbug.

When did he say Jews weren't, inter alia, a biological race?  As far as that goes, pretty sure yer jabbering.

Anyway, are you joking?  Believes his own humbug?  He f**king lies like a dog.  He has an enormous and aggressive mind ; there's like a 2% chance he's not consciously lying virtually any &amp; every time he discusses Jews.  He's been very illuminating and important to me and has abounding merits, so I don't enjoy saying this.  Tough s**t.

He obviously has the virtue of setting out every hour to test out very earnestly the opposite of whatever he believed an hour ago.  --In this case, earnestly and very privately -- secretly.  No, he doesn't believe the nonsense he spouts.

Now, there were plenty of subversive Protestants and Jews around in 1946.  To some extent, some of the left-Prots may have been pushed/allured into subversive ideas by Jews.  (E.g., or parallel to, the way the largely-Jewish October Revolution forced concessions to the working man in other countries -- which wasn't always such a terrible thing, in moderation.)  Just as others, I think including MM, have argued that Jewish leftism is just assimilation to Anglo culture -- going the full monty with that notion I think is plainly a farcical stretch.

There were plenty of status quo, rightist, and hard-right Protestants around, something which a lot of people influenced by Mencius would love for you to totally ignore.

To untangle questions of who pushed/influenced who, and how strong the Anglo right was, would be pretty involved work.  Were one to pursue it, it would be comical to rely at all on a liar like Mencius.  Anyway, there were clearly tons of sickening Anglos around, and they are at least partly (largely) responsible for being the way they were.

Now, why anyone (not sure this includes Pman) would be such a fool as to blithely assent to going around calling Anglos 'WASPs', is way over my head, yet 3/4 of the alt-right seems to do it.  Good heavens people, get a f**king grip.

#56 Rob S.

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:34 PM

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how Southern Jews actively opposed negro liberation and political involvement during the post war and "civil rights" periods, are good pieces on this

Well, bully for those individuals . . . meanwhile other Jews from NAACP to Simon and Garfunkel seem to have practically invented 'civil rights' and muscled it through.  Not to overlook Blacks like the very talented MLK -- no doubt an electrifying orator, whatever you think of his cause.

So, good for them but what doubtless matters most is the 'civil rights' big picture.

#57 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:16 AM

His line about his father being Jewish is where he strongly implies he doesn't think of it as a real ethnicity, but as a religious/cultural badge.
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#58 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:24 AM

View PostRob S., on 05 June 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

There were plenty of status quo, rightist, and hard-right Protestants around, something which a lot of people influenced by Mencius would love for you to totally ignore.

This is why I referenced "contending ideologies".  Immigration was very hotly debated at the turn of the century, which is why immigration was sharply restricted and why the waves that entered the country were eventually more or less assimilated (the cost was not free in terms of cohesion).  That is why it took Jews and others (but Jews were certainly at the vanguard) until 1965 to push the floodgates open.  This is all disappeared by Moldbug, it's as if that fierce and effective resistance never existed.  You raise good points, although I don't really know enough about Moldbug to call him a liar.  I think Jews as a group are prodded by cultural and racial motivators to make many of their arguments, it's as much if not moreso about emotional reaction as it is intellectual scheming.  The person simplest to deceive is always oneself.
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#59 Shrill Kiners

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:25 AM

One data point that supports MM's theory that the left is a creature of Protestantism is the history of Judson Church in New York City. Back in the 50's,they hosted the first public meeting advocating legal abortion-on-demand. If that's the central liberal point, then liberal christians beat liberal jews to the punch.

There are lots of problems with his theories, but he's not stupid for holding them.

#60 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

Come on.
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