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Bryan Caplan and his beep boop crusade against nationalism


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#1 Blythe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

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Bryan Caplan arguing with Steve Sailer:  Caplan says that favoring citizens over foreigners for jobs is like ignoring your children's misdeeds.  It makes no sense whatsoever.

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I'd ask, "If allowing a peaceful worker to accept a job offer from a peaceful employer isn't a fundamental moral obligation, what is?"  And I'd listen carefully and respectfully to his reply.

However, if a citizenist recognizes no moral obligations to non-citizens, I can only dismiss him as a monster.  The same goes if the citizenist says he recognizes some moral obligations to non-citizens, but then refuses to specify them or seriously consider whether the policies he advocates violate these obligations.  

As a parent, I identify with the citizenist's sense of obligation to his people.  I freely admit that I put my children's welfare far ahead of the welfare of strangers.  Nevertheless, if one of my children kicked an innocent person, cheated on a test, or slashed a rival's tires, I'd have a duty to set my feelings aside and make my child answer for his offense.  I certainly wouldn't help my child trample the rights of others.  

Does this make me special?  Hardly.  I'm only describing common decency.  I suspect that most citizenists would treat their wayward children the same way I would.  

My question for citizenists everywhere: If you think you're often morally obligated to suppress the favoritism you naturally feel for your children, why aren't you morally obligated to suppress the far milder favoritism you naturally feel for your fellow citizens?  Once you suppress this favoritism, can you really in good conscience take the side of a citizen who wants to deny foreigners permission to work so he can get a better job?


#2 Probably Not a Braigetor

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

What the f**k kind of analogy is that? Have our fellow citizens been "kicking" people, therefore we need to outsource manufacturing jobs to China?

The trampling that's being done is capital running to fling the doors open wide for cheap labor. Putting it in moral terms like this is not only bad reasoning it's arguing in supremely bad faith.

Get f**ked, Caplan. I hope you enjoy the hell you made.

#3 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

that post and all the comments are basically "libertarians.txt"

never have so many beeped and booped to the interest of so few
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#4 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

I posted this as a comment, which got rejected (see below):

It has to be said, it is curious that conservatives continue to take the field of economics seriously yet deride anthropology and sociology and the rest of the social sciences.  Caplan obviously doesn't know and probably isn't capable of learning the first thing about human societies, although he has apparently lived in one since birth.  Given the bizarre logic of his arguments and his remoteness to normal human drives, he seems to be afflicted with Aspergers.

"If allowing a peaceful worker to accept a job offer from a peaceful employer isn't a fundamental moral obligation, what is?"  You can bet Caplan doesn't leave tips, because his entire argument rests on the moral superiority of cheapness--the point of hiring illegals is that they are easier to control and much cheaper to employ.  No one hires them out of altruism (except possibly preceding illegals), therefore talk of moral obligations is pure deception.

Societies anyway are not founded on moral imperatives, but on the desire of human beings to live safely and prosperously together, in whatever manner suits them best.  Morality is specific to the culture of each society, Caplan's universal moral obligations do not exist.  The masochistic morality of Caplan's argument is merely the symptom of a late stage complex society with a parasitic elite, plus politically correct radiation treatments, which have obviously rendered Caplan's brain into a vestigial organ.

To anyone of above feeble intelligence, it's obvious that large migrations of people will lead to conflict, instability, social dysfunction, and other not very nice things.  It's obvious that employers who seek to bring in illegals so they can pay sub-middle class wages are not acting out of moral impulses to better the lives of foreigners.  The rhetoric is all hypocrisy.  When Caplan opens his mouth about moral imperatives, something retarded and offensive pours out.  It seems to be a condition he should seek treatment for, although I understand it's difficult to cure libertarianism.
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#5 Frontier

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

View PostProbably Not Mleasurepan, on 08 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

The trampling that's being done is capital running to fling the doors open wide for cheap labor. Putting it in moral terms like this is not only bad reasoning it's arguing in supremely bad faith.

There's a reason Roissy calls this guy "cheap chalupas."

Edit: Actually, that may be Tyler Cowen.  I forget.  These guys all look alike.

#6 Legs de Castries

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

"Economic policy is the primary activity of the modern state. And if there is one thing that the public deeply misunderstands, it is economics. People do not grasp the "invisible hand" of the market, with its ability to harmonize private greed and the public interest. I call this anti-market bias. They underestimate the benefits of interaction with foreigners. I call this anti-foreign bias. They equate prosperity not with production, but with employment. I call this make-work bias. Finally, they are overly prone to think that economic conditions are bad and getting worse. I call this pessimistic bias."

Bryan Caplan, The Myth of the Rational Voter; Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies, May 29, 2007. [from a link on his website --Legs]
If the people could vote directly on each individual issue, they’d support all these things: an end to almost all immigration, legal and illegal, and sending back people in the country illegally. Strong defense, but non-interventionist foreign policy. Strong tariffs on just about everything to put American workers back to work. Tough crime laws and severe prisons. Death penalties after one month. Gun ownership, but with licensing. Removal of vagrants from the streets. Forcing the mentally ill into institutions. Equitarianism not egalitarianism. Forced government jobs for everyone who can’t find one in the public sector. An end to affirmative action. You get the idea, they are on the opposite side of the elites on all issues. --commenter Steve on a Roissy thread

#7 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

:killjews:
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#8 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

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Hi, Udolpho.

Your EconLog comment, quoted below, has been removed.

Name-calling, ad hominem remarks, snideness, and rudeness toward others are inappropriate on EconLog. Comments should address the economic content of the post and the discussion in the thread. EconLog is an economics blog, not a psychoanalysis blog.  Diagnosing and discussing the behavior of individuals is inappropriate and rude. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The portions of your comment that did not involve personal attacks were interesting and publishable.  However, they are too interspersed with personal remarks that are off limits on EconLog for us to publish the comment or suggest simple edits.

Please read about EconLog policies here:
http://www.econlib.o...tml#commentbans

Until you demonstrate that you understand and will abide by our policies about not being rude or making personal remarks in comments, you will not be considered by us for reinstatement as a commenter on EconLog. Your future comments are precluded until we hear from you.

We appreciate your comments and interest in EconLog, and we look forward to hearing from you so that we may reinstate your comment privileges.

Regards,

Lauren
(Lauren Landsburg)
webmaster@econlib.org

I replied:

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lol at this reply...could only come from someone who lives in a university hugbox and has zero personality

Caplan's arguments are completely bogus not to mention intensely weird, the reason my derision is "too interspersed" with what you consider interesting is that no one capable of making these observations will ever take libertarian arguments seriously

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#9 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

Superman: lol Caplan WE SHOULD LET ANYONE IN THE WORLD INTO OUR COUNTRY (but posting on my comments section will be tightly restricted)
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#10 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

Alfonso Dupont said:

The moderator is trying to restrict undocumented posters!  All who want to come here and post should be free to!  My invisible hand is touching me!

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#11 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

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MikeP writes:

The moderator is trying to restrict undocumented posters! All who want to come here and post should be free to!

They are. They just have to fill out the right form and get their visa.

Too bad the US borders aren't like that. The only reason immigrants are undocumented is because they can't get a visa.

Alfonso Dupont said:

MikeP is a racist! He thinks I should have to fill out a form when I say Bryan Caplan enticed me to post here--but what about those who were born here, like MikeP? Did they fill out any forms? Now I have to evade some Jewish woman who is patrolling the posting border with extreme prejudice! Ay caramba, I've been hit!

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#12 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

Probably Not Mlea...: Lauren researched this.


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#13 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

Lauren:

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#14 Japanimation Jiggaboo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

SCENE: The Caplan Household, as Junior arrives back from school.

*Junior comes through the door, and sees Bryan Caplan playing with another child, one of indeterminate Asian ethnicity*

JUNIOR: Dad, what's going on?

CAPLAN: Don't call me that anymore.  I have a new son now...Ming.

JUNIOR: What do you mean?

CAPLAN: Well ex-son, Ming is just the more efficient choice.  If you look at these indifference maps, you'll see that my utility is maximized when I use Ming as my son over you.  He's just a more efficient choice, ex-son.  I spend much less on child care, and he is happy eating a bowl of rice a day.  And he takes care of himself, not only meaning he's going to be a much better libertarian son than you'll ever be, but also allowing me to post more on my blog about how things like "borders", "nations", "cultures", and "family" are all just irrational thoughts that keep us from total efficiency.

*camera cuts to a close up of Junior crying*

*cue asthmatic laughing of live audience full of jorts-wearing libertarians*

#15 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:47 PM

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Hannah Levin-Rosenberg writes:

What many people do not understand is that borders are illogical. This is a conclusion I arrived at by asking myself whether it made any sense to restrict where people go. Clearly, it does not make any sense.

It is a proven fact that immigrants raise the standard of living, increase salaries, create better families, are more productive at work, and contribute more to communities. As a logical conclusion, we should have a plan to expel descendents of our native population and replace them with superior immigrants.

Of course there should be at least 2% of the original native population in place to oversee this process. This group should consist of high achieving elites who have a strong devotion to America as a "proposition nation".

:troll:
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#16 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

before my last comment Lauren made me verify my email address, and lol:

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Sorry for the delay.  I was deleting a dozen more comments and banning half of the individuals involved.  Getting rid of the cursing and bigotry is more important for the moment than restoring comments instantly.

Your comment and privileges are fully restored.  I'm going to take a break to barbecue a chicken.  By the time I get back, the thread will probably be in such a shambles that I'll ahve to shut it down.  *sigh*

Lauren

SIGH :parsons:
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#17 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

post your trolls itt, here's a good one someone made:

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Aaron writes:

I will share a story about my youth with you all, if that helps shed some light on how passionately many libertarians feel about this issue.

As a child I was diagnosed with autism, was not popular and never played team sports. I have often found it difficult to create relationships with the people around me because I am an outlier - not exactly 'neurotypical.'

Well if you are unusual, you may appreciate having a larger, broader population from which to draw potential friends. You have a better chance of finding friends you have something in common with. It is hard for an autistic person to find friends in a small town, and I would very much recent these 'townies' from preventing new immigrants from moving in to play with me. And if these townies pretended like they really knew what the immigrants were like inside - before even having tried to talk to them!

All my life I have been keenly aware of how difficult it is for many people to get over their social prejudices and connect with me and one another. The immigration battle is another in a long war on this front.

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#18 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

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Eli Silverstein  writes:

Closed borders are a social construct and LITERALLY murder.

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#19 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

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Boris Greenblatt writes:

Underneath the oppressive Bush administration, little-known anti-liberty regulations prevented HIV positive immigrants from crossing so called "borders" and entering into employment contracts at my exclusive nightclub, wherein they displayed their micros to paying clients. Now, however, thanks to noted micro-American ALLAH HUSSEIN OBAMA, that regulation has been revoked, and a beautiful scene of international GDP growth ensues.

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#20 PLEASUREMAN

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

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James Bowery writes:

Both Caplan and AMac are inhuman monsters that would deny the right of people to join together under mutual consent to pursue their strongly held beliefs about causal laws of human ecology by excluding from their territory those whom they consider incompatible with testing of those laws.

That these inhuman monsters call others "monsters" should be expected since, however inhuman they may be, they do possess the gift of gab.

If I were on a jury that was trying someone for having done harm, of any nature whatsoever, to AMac or Caplan, I would vote to acquit.

Moreover, there is no greater cause for liberty than to identify such inhuman monsters, whether they call themselves "libertarians" or "liberals" or "neoconservatives", as the primary enemies of liberty that today wield the power of tyranny over mankind.

Any proper use of military force would have as its declaration of war that a state of peace may once again reign once these inhuman monsters no longer wield any powers of government.

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